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Author Topic: Yore Puzzles! Discussion Thread  (Read 598 times)

Glenn9999

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Yore Puzzles! Discussion Thread
« on: January 02, 2025, 08:00:49 PM »
If anyone didn't notice, our @admin posted some PUZ files from the Minneapolis Journal from October 1934.  I wanted to start a thread for discussion, as I enjoy having a look at these things, and collect them (I could post a ton of them I moved to PUZ, though not sure about copyright on some of it, especially some of the Simon & Schuster efforts.  You'll find three of their crossword books on the Project Gutenberg site so you'll have those to play with, though no answers provided as you were supposed to send a letter to them to get those and evidently they didn't have those preserved).

First off, thank you @admin for sharing these (and would love to see more).

Overall, you'll find differing characters for a lot of older puzzles, depending on the editor.  Sadly a lot of puzzles these days have tried to echo what Will Shortz does, so you don't find a lot of difference in editing, character, and outlook across venues as you did back then.  It's almost a different experience to get acquainted with a puzzle that takes things on in a lot different way than another one. 

Then, you'll see a different outlook given the cultural time, plus scientific differences.  (My favorite one of those is a clue [Individisible part of matter] with answer of ATOM.  Of course, a more recent example is a reference to nine planets as opposed to eight.)  Plus there will be geographical naming differences depending on the time (Prussia or Siam).

And, I got to have an attempt at solving all of them now (they remind me a lot of early Simon & Schuster):
mj19341001.puz: This one will be near impossible for most of us.  It qualifies as a "stunt construction", and uses a lot of esoteric words.  It's a challenge, but if you aren't up on those, you'll be throwing in the towel quick enough.
mj19341002.puz: Very thoughtful, you'll get reminded a lot of the Newsday Saturday Stumpers.  It'll be a lot harder than what you're used to, generally, but reasonably solveable.  Only had trouble with the points that crossed with terms I didn't know.  Lower right will be the worst section on that point.
mj19341008.puz: Like #2, weird words abound but mostly solvable.  I got reminded of the other things to watch on these older puzzles.  Two-letter entries are common and it gets obvious pretty quickly doing these puzzles as to why they got abolished in most circles today.  Also, there's often duh obvious things that will stump you if you get too far afield in thinking.  Expect repetition as well in the clues and sometimes the entries.
mj19341009.puz: Solution not provided on this one in the PUZ.  I'm thinking, though, it's probably going to be near impossible for most for certain sections.  I spent a fair amount of time Googling to try to answer the parts I didn't just because of some of the words and arcane stuff.  Got my answers I can provide if people want 'em.
mj19341026.puz: Probably the easiest of the set and the one I'd recommend to try if you did just one.  A couple of sections are going to go weird, especially on the left side, but nothing 100% unmanageable.

Anyway, hopefully this turns into a bit of "wayback" fun for everyone.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2025, 10:06:05 PM by Glenn9999 »

admin

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Re: Yore Puzzles! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2025, 10:17:50 AM »
Hi, and thanks for this excellent post. I'm glad you got some enjoyment from the puzzles. I find them fascinating, mostly because I like old things. Old newspapers. Old books. Old photos. I collect and cherish old stuff.

There will be several more puzzles coming soon. I'll finish off the Minneapolis Journal collection and then move on to something else. I'll see what I can dig up.

-Kevin

Glenn9999

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Re: Yore Puzzles! Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2025, 10:10:10 PM »
Hi, and thanks for this excellent post. I'm glad you got some enjoyment from the puzzles. I find them fascinating, mostly because I like old things. Old newspapers. Old books. Old photos. I collect and cherish old stuff.

There will be several more puzzles coming soon. I'll finish off the Minneapolis Journal collection and then move on to something else. I'll see what I can dig up.

-Kevin

Post edited above on account of all the new ones posted.  If people want to hear/discuss, I can put impressions of those in another comment here. 

I just find the character of these things to be different, as hinted.  I have 6 books of puzzles from this era (4 of them fully converted to PUZ) and a ton of others I've picked up over the years. Like I said up above, I probably could dig up a ton of these myself if people really want to play with these.

I find it interesting to see the evolution of these things, even if like the first and fourth above, they can get painful to solve.  A lot of people dictionary-trawled, so some of that was okay with them.  It's also a reminder of how crossword creation software ended up benefiting things as they didn't have to find odd words to fill out a grid.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2025, 10:13:48 PM by Glenn9999 »

admin

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Re: Yore Puzzles! Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2025, 12:49:45 PM »
It certainly is interesting to see how things have evolved. Back then, phrases were not used as answers. Very few fill-in-the-blanks (I think I saw two or three in all of these MJ puzzles). Many clues start with "A", "An" and sometimes "The". I think the first two may have been used to differentiate between verbs and nouns (or adjectives), but not always. And "The" seems to appear arbitrarily, such as "The pineapple" for ANANA. A lot of obscurity, that's for sure. And interesting cluing.

Check out the word counts and other info:

https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34507
https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34508
https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34509
https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34510
https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34511
https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34512
https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34513
https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34514
https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34515
https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34516
https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34517
https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34518
https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34519
https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34520
https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34521
https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34522
https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34523
https://www.cruciverb.com/data.php?op=showwordinfo&pid=34524

« Last Edit: January 06, 2025, 12:56:28 PM by admin »

Glenn9999

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Re: Yore Puzzles! Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2025, 03:52:04 PM »
It certainly is interesting to see how things have evolved. Back then, phrases were not used as answers. Very few fill-in-the-blanks (I think I saw two or three in all of these MJ puzzles). Many clues start with "A", "An" and sometimes "The". I think the first two may have been used to differentiate between verbs and nouns (or adjectives), but not always. And "The" seems to appear arbitrarily, such as "The pineapple" for ANANA. A lot of obscurity, that's for sure. And interesting cluing.

I'll say, phrases were used as answers back then, but very rarely.  I'd have to really dig in the stuff I have to find an example, but indeed it's nowhere near common. 

As for "A" "An" and "The", there's a lot more attention to grammar and word meaning then than now.  I remember talking to a person that temped in a school and ended up getting to grade some essays.  Most of them ended up with F grades based on grammar issues, incorrect word usages, misspellings, and the like.  He ended up getting reprimanded for grading like that and was told to give rosier things.   I've even noticed my older professors when I was in college would eviscerate my papers for those kind of issues.  I even had one that suggested the College Writing Lab as a proofreader get egg on his face when I mentioned to him that said group passed it with flying colors and said I "write wonderfully".  (He ultimately allowed us to resubmit.)  That said, I find I could red pen a lot of newspaper articles I read for those kind of things (the biggest strike being over-reliance on spell check) and get very frustrated at times with how badly word usage gets mangled in these modern crosswords.  I know educational standards have gone downhill greatly, even since I went to school.

That said, what I'm finding with these old crosswords is there is a demonstration of how different English usage is over time.  I think it has changed over my time on this Earth, even.   Of course, you can notice it in a stark way reading Elizabethan language.  I do know a lot of the "classic novels" get edited from the originally penned version when they get reprinted for these kind of reasons.  My question I have on all of these things is how solvers of that time would have perceived them. 

What I'm noticing in doing old crosswords overall as to where I have problems:

1. Novel words.  Things I've never heard of.  I do have dictionary ads in those puzzle books I mentioned.  Along with other references I've read of people hogging use of dictionaries in the libraries, I have to think a certain amount of dictionary trawling was expected, since the constructors likely did the same to fill in a grid.  (Advantage software there.)  Your word usage listings will definitely highlight those spots for me, though I'm surprised some of the words that I do know have been sparsely used or not at all.

2. Words I know used in novel ways.  Usually I get enough crosses and guess something thinking "I've never heard of it, but that makes sense."  I figure this is a mark of how the language has changed.

3. Overly vague clues.  I have trouble with this in crosswords, period.  But I notice it to be more pronounced in these older ones.  Again, the clue words maybe had more meaning to solvers then than now?

As a side note, I discovered what appears to be a few typos in the clues of those PUZ files.  Nothing hardly taken as I try my best and still notice them when I transcribe crosswords myself and go back to solve them later once I've forgotten any answers I might have transcribed when making the PUZ file.

Glenn9999

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Re: Yore Puzzles! Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2025, 04:10:13 PM »
More impressions:

mj19341203.puz: Should be mostly possible for solvers today.  A few crosses in the lower left will likely be trouble.
mj19341204.puz: Mostly point #2 above struck for me on this one, though there's a few odd words.
mj19341210.puz: Probably about half will be of issue to modern solvers.
mj19341211.puz: Got about 90% of this fairly quickly, but one or two crosses will be of issue.
mj19341214.puz: About 30% of this one for point #2 above.  Several entries on this one makes me wonder how much language has changed exactly over this time (31A being a great example of the question).
mj19341217.puz: Got this one mostly.  The lower left will likely be the challenge.

That said, one note I forgot above is that language has definitely changed enough that I notice Google is next to no help if you want help on solving a lot of the clues contained within these puzzles.  When I have had to reverse-engineer answers like I did with mj19341009.puz, I've had to pattern-match off of my word lists and then sanity test them against the answers I am sure about and then Google the prospective answer (and even then that doesn't work sometimes).   (As a side question, wondering whether I could drop puzzles like that into my crossword construction software with that list and auto-fill and make that job easier?)

 


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